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welcome to sales from the rabbit hole

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i'm your host mick west my guest today

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is professor rb loeb

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uh avi thank you very much for being

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here uh it's uh

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great for you to make the time to do

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this

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thanks for hosting me it's my pleasure

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so you are a professor of science and i

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found that very interesting because uh

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science you know as you know is very

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compartmentalized even at school you

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start out you know we we start out

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learning science and then it very

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quickly divides into physics chemistry

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and biology

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so uh and when i looked up professor of

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science it doesn't seem to be a very

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common title you see things like

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professor of science communications or

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professor of science and technology and

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things like that how do you get to be a

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professor of science

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well it's a name the chair so

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it's called the frank b bird the junior

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professor of science at harvard and i

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originally was a professor of astronomy

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because i belong to the astronomy

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department but then

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they gave me a chair position so

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that's where the science came in and of

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course the way i view myself is as a

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broad

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ranging scientists in the sense that i

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worked on many different aspects of

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science you know i worked on uh

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the first stars in the universe early on

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and

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you might call it the scientific version

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of the story of genesis let there be

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light

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and i worked on black holes for many

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years and

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also

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served as the founding director of the

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black hole initiative at harvard

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most recently the search for life

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in the universe and so it's a very

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diverse range of

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research topics and uh you know when i

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started astrophysics i was given an

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advice by my mentor at the time john

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bakal he said you should focus on a very

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specific topic

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so that you can become the world expert

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and i never listened to his advice

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yeah that's good uh

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i i like the idea of being a scientific

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generalist myself and obviously i'm not

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really a scientist as such but uh you

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know i like learning lots of different

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new things and you know i appreciate

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that uh and you when we before we

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started this this interview when we were

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getting it in touch you advised me to

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have a look at the the series of

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articles that you write at scientific

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america and you know they're great

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they're really interesting and i think

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it gives you a very people a very good

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idea of who you are and uh the broad

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range of things that you are interested

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in you know in a way these these essays

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and also my book exoperation are an

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admission that uh of my true love which

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was philosophy at a young age when i

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grew up on a farm and

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i was mostly interested in the big

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questions unfortunately we don't have

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answers to those big questions like

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what's the meaning of life you know we

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are born into this world like actors put

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on a stage without knowing what the play

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is about and most people think the play

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is about us

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and you know it started with the ancient

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greek philosopher aristotle that argued

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that we are at the center of the

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universe and people believed him for a

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thousand years it was very flattering to

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our ego

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and what we now know is the universe is

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10 to the power 26 times bigger the

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observable volume of the universe is

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10 to the power 26 times bigger than the

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size of our body so we're clearly not at

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the center of the stage and moreover the

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play has been going on for 13.8 billion

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years so it's clearly not about us

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that's you know i understand where this

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is coming from because my daughters when

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they were young they thought everything

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is centered on them

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and then they got

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into the world they went to the

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kindergarten and realized there are

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other kids and some of them are smarter

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than they are and

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you know we still have to mature in that

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sense many of my colleagues still argue

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that we are alone and

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until given extraordinary evidence they

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will continue to think that we are the

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smartest on our cosmic blog

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yeah we uh i have that kind of

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experience myself of thinking i was the

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smartest kid around when i was very very

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young and i you know i was in my school

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my little school but then of course you

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go out into the broader world and to the

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university and yes

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yeah well i i think it's uh true for

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someone like einstein you know he

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thought that he's the smartest early on

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and it was true later on as well

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right but

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most people

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uh so you talked about philosophy and

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let's talk a little bit about the

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philosophy of science uh and one of the

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big issues in the philosophy of science

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is the the demarcation issue

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how do you decide what is science and

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what is pseudoscience and we're going to

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talk here about about ufos and obviously

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a lot of people would consider

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uh the study of ufos to be pseudoscience

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and yeah i think they disagree yeah the

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distinction is rather simple um science

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is if i had to define it actually

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i was asked to define an intelligent

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civilization and the way i define an

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intelligent civilization is a

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civilization guided by

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the principles of science which are a

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cooperation and sharing of

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evidence-based knowledge so there are

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two elements to that one is cooperation

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and sharing and if you look at human

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history it's full of instances where

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humans tried to feel superior relative

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to each other and did not really share i

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mean even recently um you know the

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information about kovid 19 was not

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shared with the rest of the world when

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it started in wuhan china and that is

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not a good

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sign because

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intelligence is you know trying to

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promote a better future for than all of

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all humans and in that sense you know

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political boundaries and and boundaries

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between countries do not make much much

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sense you want to help everyone and

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nowadays we live in a global world so

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that's one of the elements and then the

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second one most important that makes the

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distinction between cellular science and

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real science

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is evidence based knowledge and you know

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we see a lot

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of of discussion in politics that is not

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evidence based and in other realms of of

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our life and uh i think

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we will be much better off if we were to

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be guided by evidence and and by the way

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we will talk about the galileo project

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but the entire motivation for me

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uh to lead this project is to bring a

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subject that you might call

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pseudoscience because perhaps the

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evidence that was released to the public

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was not

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convincing and there might be other

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evidence you know it might be like an

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iceberg where we see only the tip but i

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don't you know i don't really care

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uh if there is classified evidence and

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what the past evidence is i just want to

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collect enough evidence to examine it

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scientifically because science is guided

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by evidence and nothing more nothing

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less and and we should regard science

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it's a learning experience for me

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science is a privilege

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of maintaining your childhood curiosity

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and you know as a child as a kid when

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adults tell you something you don't

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believe them you just go out and and

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check it for yourself something bad

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happens to these kids when they become

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adults they stop checking and they start

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to believe uh

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ideas that are not um you know um that

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are not supported by evidence yeah and

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that's something i'm very much against

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obviously because i'm kind of a skeptic

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slash debunker

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that's perfectly fine to be skeptic and

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i think it's important to to be skeptic

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because yeah but if if that motivates

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you to collect better evidence

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you are following signs

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yeah so let's say uh just imagine for a

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second i was i got a check for a million

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dollars here and i want to invest this

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million dollars in the

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search for ufos like because i i'm

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personally convinced to say that ufos

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might be alien visitors and i want to

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kind of get that out to the world

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why should i give my million dollars to

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you and project galileo okay so

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the galileo project is basically the

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the scope of it is trying to establish

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the study of of unidentified objects

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whose nature is not known in our

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atmosphere

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to study it scientifically meaning to

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collect evidence uh using instruments

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that we have full control over so for

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example past testimonies

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uh you know do not stand up to the

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scrutiny of science you can't write a

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scientific paper based on what people

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tell you can't say this person said that

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and and submit the paper for publication

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that's not acceptable uh what you need

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is to rely on instruments that collect

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the quantitative evidence um and so

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that's point number one the second is

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the instruments that were used in the

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past on reports

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uh on unidentified objects uh were not

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optimized for that purpose they were for

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example a jittery camera in the cockpit

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of a fighter jet i mean that's not a

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scientific experiment because you don't

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know exactly how the fighter jet

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maneuvered and uh you don't know what

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kind of jitters were introduced to the

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camera during that flight and um what

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you want is to have full control and

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full knowledge of your experimental

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setup and that's what the galileo

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project wants to do we want to we don't

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want to look back at past evidence in

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fact we say that explicitly on our

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website

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also the other thing that i should say

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we don't want to entertain explanations

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that deviate from the known laws of

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physics so if someone says oh actually

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you know there is something really

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strange going on that violates the

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standard model of of physics we will not

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entertain that we will use our knowledge

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just like in a regular scientific

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experiment of course if we are pushed

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to the point where the evidence is so

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uh unusual that

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you can say for sure that

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our understanding of physics is violated

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you know that would be uh worth

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a nobel prize of course and and i find

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it unlikely because there are so many

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experiments that we've

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tested the current understanding of the

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laws of physics that i would really find

281
00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:20,880
it surprising if these objects violated

282
00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:22,720
so at first we will

283
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:24,959
use the what we know about physics the

284
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:26,399
laws of nature

285
00:10:32,470 --> 00:10:29,040
and then not deviate from that and then

286
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:32,480
collect as much data as possible using a

287
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:33,760
telescopes

288
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:35,040
connected to

289
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:37,200
uh cameras that fit the data into

290
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,600
computer systems that filter it for

291
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,279
objects of interest and i should say i

292
00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:43,120
mean people would ask okay what's new

293
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:45,519
about it you know we have telescopes

294
00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:47,760
operated by astronomers

295
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,079
looking at the sky all the time well the

296
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,240
answer is if a bird flies above a

297
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,160
telescope that astronomers are using

298
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:56,320
they just ignore it we will look at it

299
00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:58,959
and see that it's a bird and identified

300
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:00,640
we will try to get a high resolution

301
00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:02,880
image just to give you a sense an object

302
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:04,720
the size of a person

303
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:06,720
at a distance of a mile

304
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:08,880
uh can be resolved

305
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:11,040
with a megapixel image so that you can

306
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:13,600
see the size of the head of a pin on it

307
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:16,320
using a one meter telescope

308
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:19,600
and just standard optics and then you

309
00:11:24,069 --> 00:11:22,160
know in a few weeks ago i looked online

310
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:24,079
and you can actually

311
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,560
purchase such a telescope you just add

312
00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:28,720
it to your bag there is a button add to

313
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:30,959
the bag it costs half a million dollars

314
00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:32,880
that's a lot of money but apparently

315
00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:34,480
there are people willing to spend that

316
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:35,839
so the point is with a big enough

317
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,279
telescope you can tell whether an object

318
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:41,760
the size of a person has a label saying

319
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:44,560
made in china made in russia or made on

320
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,440
exoplanet x you know and

321
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:49,200
that's what we will now i should tell

322
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:52,000
you that i'm not interested at all in

323
00:11:57,190 --> 00:11:53,920
anything that is human made you know if

324
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:57,200
it says made in china or made in russia

325
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:59,040
you know that's very boring as far as

326
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:01,040
i'm concerned i will transfer all the

327
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:02,880
information to washington dc whoever

328
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:03,920
wants it

329
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,399
uh i don't you know the project is not

330
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,880
about that we don't care about that

331
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:10,639
kind of objects

332
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:12,079
the two the two types that are of

333
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:13,680
interest are of course atmospheric

334
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:15,760
phenomena you know things that happen in

335
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:19,040
nature were unexpected and produce

336
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,800
interesting events that were previously

337
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:22,720
unappreciated you know that's why their

338
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,079
nature is not known in the uap report to

339
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:28,079
to congress so that's one possibility

340
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:29,519
and of course there is a possibility

341
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:31,920
that something out of this earth came

342
00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:34,639
uh nearby so i mean we are completely

343
00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:37,839
agnostic uh without any agenda just

344
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:39,760
trying to collect the data and and the

345
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:42,320
good thing is you know that we are

346
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:45,200
funded by donations so i did not

347
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,440
fundraise i just got not one million but

348
00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:49,680
two nearly two million dollars over the

349
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:51,839
past few weeks from donors that i've

350
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:54,959
never met before until the last

351
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,440
few weeks and and they just decided to

352
00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,519
support that research and

353
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:01,600
i said at that point i said okay well i

354
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:03,839
can assemble

355
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:05,839
exceptional scientists mostly

356
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,800
astronomers that know how to construct

357
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:10,639
telescopes that will serve the purpose

358
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,560
that we need them for

359
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:14,800
uh and you might ask why not use

360
00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:16,720
satellite data you know there was some

361
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:18,399
satellite data looking down well

362
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:20,480
satellites move around the earth

363
00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:22,240
very quickly they can't really monitor

364
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,399
the motion of a given object in the way

365
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,480
that we want it and

366
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,240
so i was asked by many people why not

367
00:13:33,269 --> 00:13:30,560
use existing data the point is existing

368
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:33,279
data was never designed for the purpose

369
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:35,200
that we are talking about this is really

370
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,760
a new endeavor and no and and the reason

371
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:39,360
it was not done in the past is very

372
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,480
simple

373
00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:42,320
the science community scientists

374
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:44,639
ridiculed this subject and didn't take

375
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,880
it seriously at the same time there were

376
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,399
people out there

377
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:50,320
uh making statements that do not make

378
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,399
much sense including statements about

379
00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:54,639
violating the laws of physics you know

380
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:55,519
and

381
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:59,199
you see that there is no point in us

382
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:00,720
getting engaged because it makes no

383
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:03,279
sense so the two communities basically

384
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:06,079
created the status quo where not much

385
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,199
was done and then when the report came

386
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,040
to congress at that point it looked to

387
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,600
me as if it's you know it's very

388
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:15,360
intriguing for us to look into it

389
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,320
because former cia directors brennan and

390
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:20,160
woolsey would say this is a serious

391
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:22,320
matter former president barack obama

392
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:23,839
said this is a serious matter this is a

393
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,079
real object so if the politicians in

394
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:28,160
washington dc you know and military

395
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:29,519
personnel say

396
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:31,040
they don't understand the nature of some

397
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,880
objects that appear to be real at that

398
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,880
point in time i say let's move this

399
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:36,959
subject away from the talking points of

400
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:39,040
politicians military personnel to the

401
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,199
realm of science so that we can clear up

402
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,160
the fog and resolve it once and for all

403
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:46,160
you know this is a subject we are not in

404
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:50,320
the dark ages right so we there there is

405
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,000
we shouldn't uh

406
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,800
speculate we we can clear it up with the

407
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,560
investment of a few tens of millions of

408
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:58,240
dollars and we can talk about why i need

409
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:00,320
more money in order to do it properly

410
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:03,040
but the point is we can clear up this

411
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:05,279
this fog and and find the answer and

412
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,120
then move on you know if it ends up

413
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:09,120
being a natural phenomenon so be it i

414
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,720
have no agenda

415
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:12,320
that's a very interesting idea the idea

416
00:15:15,829 --> 00:15:14,399
that you can clear it up in just uh i

417
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:15,839
guess a few years with a few tens of

418
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:17,680
millions of dollars and that would be

419
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:19,199
great obviously if that actually

420
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:20,480
happened but let's kind of like look at

421
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:22,639
the nitty-gritty there yeah

422
00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:24,639
you're proposing essentially a network

423
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:27,279
of telescopes that are going to uh get

424
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,759
high resolution images of objects in the

425
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,160
sky and you talked about one telescope

426
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:35,120
it's a half billion dollar telescope

427
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:36,000
today

428
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:37,920
i gave an example of one telescope a

429
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,399
meter size but it's we we

430
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:42,160
are likely to use small uh slightly

431
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,839
smaller telescope because the cost is

432
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:45,600
still an issue if yes you know if

433
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:47,040
currently we have it right now very

434
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:48,320
quickly yeah

435
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:50,160
so you know the obvious issue with uh

436
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,480
ufos is that the sky is very very large

437
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,480
you know the the the amount of area that

438
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:56,160
you have to cover is very very large and

439
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:58,720
we we see ufos because we have lots of

440
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:00,399
people and so

441
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:02,399
people looking up in the sky see things

442
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:05,360
and we have a very very broad net right

443
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:07,440
how are you going to get sufficient

444
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,399
coverage

445
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,480
to get sufficient frequency of

446
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,199
observations yeah well that's that's an

447
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:15,120
excellent question and we made some

448
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:17,519
preliminary estimates for how many

449
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:20,000
telescope systems we might need given

450
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:22,880
you know the the uh

451
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:25,040
area that is covered by each telescope

452
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:27,680
system okay and and the answer is you

453
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:31,440
know for given the reports by

454
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,160
military personnel you would need the of

455
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:36,160
order at least a hundred stations a

456
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:40,160
hundred telescope systems um and then

457
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:42,560
today with the entire united states

458
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:44,320
well it could be the us it could be

459
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:46,000
elsewhere you know

460
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:48,160
of course the best sites in terms of

461
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,240
visibility are mountain tops that's why

462
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:52,000
astronomers put telescopes on mountain

463
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:54,320
tops and because the atmosphere is more

464
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:57,279
dilute as you go up and there is less

465
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,040
blurring by atmospheric turbulence so

466
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:00,959
you can see better to greater distances

467
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:02,560
without

468
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:05,039
deterioration of the image quality and

469
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:06,559
uh but

470
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:08,319
it may well be i mean some people claim

471
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,720
that uap concentrate around the

472
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:12,799
particular locations like

473
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,679
military facilities or or nuclear

474
00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:18,240
reactors and uh the point is these are

475
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:20,400
the facilities that are most monitored

476
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,400
so it's not clear to me that it's not

477
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,240
just a selection highest

478
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:27,439
but um at any event um and obviously you

479
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,360
know most of the sky is not classified

480
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:31,280
that's why astronomers use telescopes

481
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:34,480
without any problem uh and so

482
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:35,679
we may not

483
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,799
approach military facilities because

484
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,720
some you know these areas are restricted

485
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,720
but but we will try to spread the

486
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,960
telescopes over a wide range of

487
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:46,320
of um

488
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:48,640
environments and uh the question of the

489
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,679
location is um yet to be decided where

490
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:54,400
would we put them but what i'm saying is

491
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:55,200
uh

492
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,799
currently with the current funding we

493
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:58,640
can at most fund

494
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:01,360
up to 10 systems

495
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,799
uh and then the thing is we need 100

496
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,720
or or more so we need 10 times more

497
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:08,799
funding uh current so we need tens of

498
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,760
millions but but if we have that we we

499
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:13,760
will have that which i'm optimistic

500
00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:15,520
about because once we demonstrate that

501
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,160
we can accom we can achieve the data

502
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:20,640
quality that we need uh at that point we

503
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:23,919
might get more donors to to to support

504
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:25,600
the project and you know i must

505
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:28,240
emphasize we are not taking away money

506
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,120
from

507
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,039
searches you know the this the

508
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,080
mainstream science done by the national

509
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:36,559
science foundation or or nasa in the

510
00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:38,240
sense you know people are still

511
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:39,679
searching for the dark matter for

512
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:41,760
example right but right that's supported

513
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:46,160
by doe or supported by uh nsf and um

514
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,679
we haven't found the dark matter for

515
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:49,360
four decades we've been searching

516
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:50,640
investing hundreds of millions of

517
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:53,039
dollars in the dark so to speak

518
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:55,440
and that is mainstream in science that's

519
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,240
mainstream in uh astronomy and it's

520
00:19:01,669 --> 00:19:00,000
completely legitimate not to find

521
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:01,679
something you're looking for you know

522
00:19:06,150 --> 00:19:03,840
and uh like people were searching for

523
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,160
weekly interacting massive particles i

524
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,480
don't regard it as a failure that for 40

525
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,480
years nothing was found and just upper

526
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,640
limits were set and i asked an

527
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:14,160
experimentalist how long will you

528
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:16,880
continue to search and he said as long

529
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:19,360
as i'm getting funded so that is

530
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:20,720
completely but

531
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:21,840
having

532
00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:24,160
zero or a thousand times less funding

533
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:26,400
for the trying to figure out the nature

534
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:28,880
of this uap doesn't make much sense to

535
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,160
me so i think

536
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,640
uh at this day and age you know science

537
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,039
should engage in a topic that is of such

538
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:36,799
interest to the public

539
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,520
and clear it up you know we are not

540
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:41,039
you know a thousand years ago there were

541
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,400
people saying the human body has a soul

542
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,240
and therefore anatomy should be

543
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:48,640
forbidden imagine if scientists would

544
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:51,039
say oh some people are saying nonsense

545
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,440
about the human body we don't want to

546
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,600
engage with the human body we don't want

547
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:57,440
to have operations because there is all

548
00:20:01,990 --> 00:20:00,400
this nonsense said about it uh you know

549
00:20:04,149 --> 00:20:02,000
it's a controversial subject the human

550
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:04,159
body think where where would modern

551
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:06,640
medicine be the point is if science has

552
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:08,960
the ability to address a question that

553
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:10,960
has a lot of nonsense being said about

554
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:13,679
it it should do it so that agrees it's

555
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,679
basically being said about it so that we

556
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,760
can clear it up and move on

557
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,360
yeah i would i very much like that i

558
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:21,440
would like to have more data i i you

559
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:22,720
know i'm a big fan of science and

560
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:25,520
science fiction and uh the idea of alien

561
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,280
contact would be would be great or even

562
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:29,600
just evidence of of a past alien

563
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,760
civilization even would be very good so

564
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:33,440
i'm in favor of this but what i'm

565
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:35,840
interested in is is it's kind of is it

566
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:37,440
the right thing to do

567
00:20:41,029 --> 00:20:38,880
uh and

568
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:41,039
you talk about these these telescopes

569
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:42,320
and you know the smaller ones you're

570
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:43,760
going to have these say you know 10 to

571
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,000
100 uh stations and they're going to be

572
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:48,400
taking photographs of things but you

573
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:51,200
know is is photography really going to

574
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:53,039
be showing you that much because a lot

575
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,200
of the time what you see is is images

576
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:57,520
that are ambiguous you see that now and

577
00:21:01,990 --> 00:20:59,200
what you're trying to do obviously is to

578
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,000
get an image that is less ambiguous but

579
00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:05,039
is that is that really the best use of

580
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:07,120
money yeah to get

581
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,120
a better resolution image all you need

582
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,200
is a bigger aperture so when people use

583
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,280
for example cell phones the images are

584
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,200
always blurry for an object at the

585
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,520
distance of a mile because the aperture

586
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:19,200
of the camera is so small but if you

587
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:22,080
make a camera that is 100 times bigger

588
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:24,240
then you can get 100 times better

589
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:26,640
angular resolution so it's just about

590
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:29,520
that optics but moreover in a given

591
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:31,760
station in a given system it will not be

592
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,000
just one telescope it will be multiple

593
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,400
like for example two or three so that

594
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:38,159
you can get a parallax you can see how

595
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,080
the object moves in three dimensions on

596
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:42,720
the sky you can get a trajectory you

597
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:45,039
will get a better image of it because

598
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:46,400
the telescopes are bigger than

599
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,159
previously used and moreover we use uh

600
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:52,320
detectors not just in optical light

601
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:55,440
reflected sunlight but also in infrared

602
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:58,720
light and the radar systems in the radio

603
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,120
so um and we will have full control over

604
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:03,520
the instruments that we are using so we

605
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:05,840
we will know exactly what is happening

606
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:08,480
and i should emphasize one of the most

607
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:10,880
important aspects of our our work would

608
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:13,600
be that it it's open data anyone will be

609
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:15,280
able to access it there will be no

610
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,960
mystery about uh hidden data or whether

611
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:20,720
high resolution data exists but not

612
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:22,240
released because it will not be

613
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,000
classified the only reason the data by

614
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:26,000
the government is classified because it

615
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:29,280
it was taken by classified sensors and

616
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:32,080
um the government doesn't uh release the

617
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,240
data simply because it doesn't want to

618
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:36,559
reveal the quality of the sensors being

619
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:38,880
used to monitor our sky so that

620
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,640
adversaries will know what we use and uh

621
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,559
we don't have that problem and by the

622
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,600
way i

623
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:48,000
personally do not want to look at any

624
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:50,720
classified data because that would limit

625
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:52,480
my freedom as a scientist i don't want

626
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:56,159
to be obligated uh not to think uh

627
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,679
because it will always be in the back of

628
00:23:02,470 --> 00:22:59,280
my head if i had

629
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,480
witnessed the classified data and uh if

630
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,320
if i don't see it then we can just

631
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:06,480
collect our own new data

632
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:09,760
and examine it with a fresh perspective

633
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:11,679
i have nothing against other scientists

634
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,000
looking at classified data that we find

635
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:16,080
but i want to be free to look at new

636
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:17,039
data

637
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:19,200
and you know the sky is not classified

638
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:20,880
most of it is not classified so we can

639
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:22,880
just look up the astronomers are using

640
00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:23,919
it

641
00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:25,679
are looking at the sky all the time the

642
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:27,200
difference is that we will focus on

643
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:29,600
nearby objects i should say the galileo

644
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:31,600
project has two components that there is

645
00:23:35,909 --> 00:23:34,080
a second component that has to do with

646
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:35,919
interstellar objects objects that came

647
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,240
from outside the solar system and enter

648
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:40,240
the solar system like omua moao for

649
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:42,960
example that look weird objects that do

650
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:45,520
not match what we are used to in terms

651
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:48,559
of looking at comets or asteroids and we

652
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,400
just want to figure out their nature you

653
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:52,640
know just like you walk on the on the

654
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:54,559
beach and you see most of the time rocks

655
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:56,080
and every now and then you see a plastic

656
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,480
bottle so we want to look if there is

657
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:00,960
any plastic bottle out there that enters

658
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,440
the solar system just to make sure that

659
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:06,000
you know that we understand the what is

660
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:08,400
coming in and i should say even if we

661
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,000
find something

662
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:12,559
uh like a hydrogen iceberg like some

663
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:15,200
people suggested for mua to explain its

664
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,720
weird properties

665
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,000
you know that's something we've never

666
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:20,000
seen before something that was not

667
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:22,000
produced in the solar system we know

668
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:23,840
that and

669
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,679
you know it's it should be very abundant

670
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,559
because

671
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,159
was the first interstellar object that

672
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,640
we discovered so if we understand

673
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:32,880
objects like omomu to be hydrogen

674
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:35,679
icebergs based on future evidence

675
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,520
that will be important for science

676
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,360
because it will imply that there are

677
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:41,279
nurseries that make objects we haven't

678
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:44,080
expected that are very common

679
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:46,000
and we will learn something new so my

680
00:24:50,470 --> 00:24:48,400
point is with new evidence you always

681
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,480
learn it's always beneficial to collect

682
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,440
evidence we are not using money that was

683
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:56,080
otherwise intended for another purpose

684
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:58,880
we are getting donations and so i should

685
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:01,200
i would think this project should get

686
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,840
the blessings of all scientists

687
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:05,760
which it doesn't

688
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:07,279
well no it doesn't i think because of

689
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:09,440
the association that it has with the

690
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,919
ufos but like getting into that i think

691
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:13,200
uh

692
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:14,720
if you're going to go out on a

693
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,400
scientific expedition you're trying to

694
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,240
gather some data to try to answer some

695
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:20,320
questions don't you have to have some

696
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:23,039
kind of existing data set uh that kind

697
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,440
of justifies what you're going to do so

698
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:27,200
like we've got all these existing

699
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:28,880
observations that people have had and we

700
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:31,760
have a few videos and things like that

701
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:34,159
do you do you think there's a

702
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,440
sufficient data set to justify what what

703
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,440
you're doing in terms of the the

704
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:41,679
telescope installations and what would

705
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:43,600
you say is the justification for this

706
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:45,679
particular experiment that you are doing

707
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:48,080
well interesting the justification for

708
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:55,350
od and i that the uap report to congress

709
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:57,679
had a classified component i didn't see

710
00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:00,320
any of that data but it was presented to

711
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:02,640
the white house it was presented to many

712
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,520
officials in past administrations and

713
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:08,159
when cia directors brennan and woolsey

714
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:10,880
and when former president barack obama

715
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:12,799
say that it's a serious matter that they

716
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:14,960
saw the classified component

717
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:17,440
and it looks convincing what i infer

718
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,360
from that and these are serious people

719
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:21,600
you see that i trust what i'm far from

720
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,360
that is that there is a mountain of data

721
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:25,360
that we don't have access to

722
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:28,240
where the images are much crispier

723
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:31,200
than we see okay the public sees

724
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:33,520
now i haven't seen that data but that's

725
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:36,000
what i infer because you know if these

726
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,480
people saw the same fuzzy images that

727
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:40,559
the two of us saw

728
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,880
then forget about it it's not convincing

729
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,720
but the fact the way that they spoke

730
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,960
about the subject and include that

731
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:48,799
includes also bill nelson you know the

732
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:50,799
director of the the

733
00:26:55,029 --> 00:26:52,720
nasa administrator

734
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:55,039
uh who expressed

735
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:57,120
his wish that scientists would look into

736
00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:00,480
the data and you know i i say these

737
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,480
people saw the classified component at

738
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:04,640
least part of it and they talk about it

739
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:06,720
seriously so that's sufficient that's a

740
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:09,200
sufficient threshold for me to say

741
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:10,320
scientists

742
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:11,360
should

743
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:13,440
collect new data

744
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,480
so that it's not classified or open data

745
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,039
and analyze it in a transparent way so

746
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:21,200
that we get a clear understanding of

747
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:22,320
this

748
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,080
move on after that if it happens to be a

749
00:27:32,389 --> 00:27:30,799
natural phenomena i have not no quarrel

750
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:32,399
with it you know whatever the data

751
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:34,880
reveals we will uh

752
00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:37,760
show to the public and uh now one thing

753
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,360
to keep in mind is

754
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:41,039
uh it's a mixed bag it's probably a

755
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,559
mixed bag right

756
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:44,640
i mean there were lots of

757
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,720
reports in the past most of them

758
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:49,120
probably have some mundane explanation

759
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:50,080
as you

760
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,520
uh argued on many occasions uh and that

761
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:55,440
would be completely fine it's the point

762
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:58,320
is we need to show that all of them at

763
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,960
least those that we can detect uh have

764
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:03,360
mundane explanations and and and and

765
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:05,279
some of them may be exotic explanations

766
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:08,080
you know like rare phenomena in air in

767
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:10,480
the atmosphere that will be fine with me

768
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:14,159
but even if there is one object that

769
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:16,720
is of extraterrestrial origin you know

770
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:17,840
that would be

771
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:20,799
major news right so uh what we want is

772
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:22,880
to have a high enough quality of data on

773
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:23,760
one

774
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:27,279
uh that looks really unusual and i don't

775
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:31,279
care if 99.9 of all the objects we find

776
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:34,320
uh appear to be made by humans or in the

777
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:36,399
atmosphere and so forth if we do find

778
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:38,240
one that seems to be

779
00:28:43,669 --> 00:28:41,760
uh clearly not human made and clearly

780
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:43,679
not natural

781
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:45,360
within the atmosphere of the earth that

782
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:46,880
would be of a

783
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:49,120
very interesting

784
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:50,960
that that would motivate me to continue

785
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,320
the search you see yeah yes but the the

786
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:56,159
this kind of data set essentially the

787
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:59,120
uap report that you're using as this uh

788
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,200
an impetus for the project is it's kind

789
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:03,360
of vague and it doesn't really give any

790
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:05,039
specifics there's no specific cases

791
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,960
listed there's no locations and no no

792
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:08,880
numbers or anything like that

793
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,799
uh so it really it's just giving you a

794
00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:13,120
kind of like a very broad thing we think

795
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,200
there are we we see things in the air

796
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,120
that yeah i agree with you i agree with

797
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:18,720
you and and and the

798
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:21,279
reason for that is presumably that the

799
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:24,320
more interesting data is classified and

800
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,600
then you ask yourself why would

801
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:29,360
uh

802
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:31,840
the intelligence agencies admit that

803
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:33,840
they're not doing their job because if

804
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:35,760
you if you just think about this report

805
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:37,039
they're saying

806
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:38,480
you know we are getting paid to do

807
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,039
something and we are not doing it they

808
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:43,200
are telling congress you know we are not

809
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:45,279
doing our job that's an unusual

810
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:47,440
admission right that there are objects

811
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:48,720
in the sky

812
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:51,039
that they cannot figure out oh it's the

813
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,360
limits of their uh their abilities i

814
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,960
wouldn't say it's not doing their job is

815
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:56,399
they they admit there are things that

816
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:59,360
their current capabilities can't uh

817
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,279
contact that's their job right they in

818
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,520
terms of national security their job is

819
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:05,600
to identify you're also

820
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:07,520
you're also saying that you think that

821
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:09,760
they have crisp photographs uh do you

822
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,760
think they essentially have what you are

823
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,120
trying to get

824
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:15,039
no so i would say that they would not

825
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:16,880
come out with an admission that they

826
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:19,600
cannot figure out the nature of these

827
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:21,200
objects unless

828
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,960
the much better data that they have in

829
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:25,200
their possession which is not released

830
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:26,559
to the public

831
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:28,000
indicated

832
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,520
that they should make such a statement

833
00:30:33,909 --> 00:30:31,679
now i don't know how good the quality of

834
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:33,919
that data is because i haven't seen it

835
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:35,520
and i'm not interested in seeing it i'm

836
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:36,640
just saying

837
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:39,760
given that the the most conservative

838
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:41,360
organization

839
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:44,000
uh that we have which is the government

840
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:46,240
comes out with a statement like that

841
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:47,679
given that

842
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:51,760
you know academia which is a blue sky

843
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:54,320
organization right it's supposed to be

844
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,559
entertaining all possibilities open be

845
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:58,240
open-minded

846
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:59,679
given that the most conservative

847
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:01,120
organization tells you there is

848
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:03,360
something we don't understand academia

849
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:05,440
should respond and say okay we'll figure

850
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:08,000
it out for you here we are to serve the

851
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:10,000
nation trying to figure out something

852
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,760
that the government doesn't figure out

853
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,840
and to me it's an interesting puzzle you

854
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:16,080
know you you might on weekends solve a

855
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:18,080
crossword puzzles you know and i

856
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:20,320
wouldn't have i would have nothing

857
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:22,399
against that so in much the same way

858
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,240
there is a puzzle here there is a

859
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:26,720
challenge that the government poses

860
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,240
and me you know i as a scientist i'm

861
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,080
intrigued by it and i want to resolve it

862
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:34,080
and i'm not using funds that were

863
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:35,600
otherwise used for something else i'm

864
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:37,600
just saying let's figure it out it's

865
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:39,760
it's fun you know science is fun and

866
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:44,000
science is exciting so why damp uh

867
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:46,000
any investigation into the origin of a

868
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:47,440
phenomena the government admits it

869
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:48,960
doesn't understand

870
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:51,120
yeah yeah and i like the idea of solving

871
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,320
puzzles and that's kind of what i do

872
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,640
when i look at a ufo video i am trying

873
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,640
to just basically figure out what

874
00:32:00,310 --> 00:31:58,799
actually is is going on

875
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,320
um

876
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,080
so the the technology that you're going

877
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:04,320
to use is you know telescopes and radar

878
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,120
and things like that and for me

879
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:09,760
uh i i obviously i would like to get uh

880
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:11,840
photographs a real quick question like

881
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,279
are you going to have well with these

882
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:15,519
telescopes just be taking photographs or

883
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:17,120
are they i don't know i mean it's true

884
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:18,640
it's a stream of photographs so it's a

885
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:20,880
video basically video of the sky now the

886
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:23,600
frame rate is to be decided we want the

887
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:25,039
heiner frame rate so that we can

888
00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:28,000
reconstruct the trajectory of an object

889
00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:29,600
you know so that we can tell if it's a

890
00:32:34,149 --> 00:32:30,720
bird

891
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:34,159
a drone or a plane or whatever um

892
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,240
so we want to be able to tell what the

893
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,640
object is doing in real time and get an

894
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:40,960
image of it if possible and then get the

895
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:42,880
its infrared signature its radio

896
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:45,440
signature and possibly some

897
00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:47,679
sense of of its spectrum if we have

898
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:49,600
enough photons if we have enough light

899
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:52,159
collected so how is the installation

900
00:32:55,909 --> 00:32:53,840
know where to point the telescope how is

901
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:55,919
it going to lock on to an object right

902
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:57,919
so we are still discussing it within the

903
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:59,840
collaboration and you know we just

904
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,080
started the collaboration a few weeks

905
00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:04,960
ago and we have a very lively discussion

906
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:05,919
on the

907
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,159
optimal instruments to be used and how

908
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:10,799
to put them together uh but the idea

909
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:13,840
would be to have a telescope system that

910
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:17,360
monitors as bigger as most of the sky

911
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:19,360
let's put it above the site where it's

912
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,480
located

913
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:22,640
uh and

914
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,480
doing it uh continuously and then

915
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:28,080
the light is

916
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:31,760
focused to a camera that takes a video

917
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,600
of the sky you know with some frame rate

918
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,760
and it's a huge amount of data you have

919
00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:37,440
to understand and

920
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,240
we cannot store that so there will be a

921
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:42,320
a very crucial component is of course

922
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,640
the software that will be used to filter

923
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:46,320
out most of the time you don't see

924
00:33:50,389 --> 00:33:48,559
anything interesting and but every now

925
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:50,399
and then there will be an object uh

926
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:53,120
moving and that would be a target of

927
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:55,120
interest and of course

928
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,840
once we train the system if it's an ai

929
00:34:02,549 --> 00:33:59,760
system or machine learning whatever

930
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:02,559
computer algorithm uh there will be

931
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:04,480
objects that keep repeating like birds

932
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:06,000
you know they behave in some special way

933
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:09,040
their image has a special characteristic

934
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,839
and uh we'll just reject things that

935
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,679
look like a bird and

936
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:16,320
we are not interested in in drones or or

937
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,119
in airplanes uh either you know and uh

938
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:21,679
so it will take time to train the system

939
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:24,320
so that we reject those things and we

940
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,240
will look at everything else that is

941
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:28,720
moving and doing things that are unusual

942
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:30,879
and try to figure it out and of course

943
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:33,760
as you said the key is to cover a large

944
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:36,159
enough chunk of the sky around the earth

945
00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:38,320
so that we have an event rate that

946
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:39,359
matches

947
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,720
the rate that was reported by pilots now

948
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:44,639
i should say we might have a much larger

949
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:47,359
event rate because we are using

950
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:49,760
instruments that are far better than the

951
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:52,399
eyes of pilots that are far better than

952
00:34:58,710 --> 00:34:55,200
the instruments on the in the cockpit of

953
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:58,720
a pilot or in the navy or where wherever

954
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,359
these uh reports came from

955
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,040
and as a result we'll see smaller

956
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:05,760
objects at greater distances and that

957
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:07,440
would increase potentially the event

958
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:10,400
rate but we hope to get much better

959
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:13,520
quality data and therefore a much better

960
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,839
assessment that you know will imply what

961
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,440
these objects are

962
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:19,440
so it sounds like from the uh the

963
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:22,320
filtering aspect of it uh you wouldn't

964
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,480
want to filter out say an aircraft just

965
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:26,160
on the fact that it's a shiny metal

966
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:27,599
cylinder in the sky because that could

967
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,359
be an alien spaceship of some sort so

968
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:31,680
you would be doing the filtering there

969
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:33,680
uh perhaps more on the motion of the

970
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,160
object would you be looking for unusual

971
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:38,480
motions no i mean if if you get a high

972
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:40,720
enough resolution of an airplane it will

973
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:43,119
be clear okay so you'd be doing just a

974
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:45,520
visual visual elimination i mean we

975
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:47,200
pretty much know which airplanes are

976
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:49,920
being used by humans right so uh yeah

977
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,839
you can build the most of them out just

978
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:54,320
by the adsb data and you can just uh you

979
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:55,760
know see what's up that's

980
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:58,800
part of it yeah we you know the software

981
00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:00,880
as you are alluding to is is extremely

982
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:02,320
important because you don't want to

983
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:04,400
throw the baby with the bathtub i mean

984
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:07,599
if you have if you are too selective you

985
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:09,839
will throw the baby with a bathtub water

986
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:14,400
so to speak yeah yeah so yeah so

987
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:15,920
the the filtering that you're going to

988
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:17,680
be doing are you saying it will be

989
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:20,960
mostly a visual filter

990
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:22,960
or are you looking for specific movement

991
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:24,079
patterns

992
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:26,560
well it will be move well it will be the

993
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,119
image the movement and of course if we

994
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:30,720
have multiple detectors you know if we

995
00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:31,520
have

996
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:33,280
uh different wavelengths that we are

997
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:35,440
looking at um

998
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:37,359
the signature in those different

999
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:39,599
wavelengths will help us and if we have

1000
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,760
multiple telescopes of course it helps a

1001
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:44,079
lot because you can reconstruct the

1002
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:46,240
motion in three dimensions you can

1003
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:48,160
have redundancy that's very important

1004
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:50,400
because if one instrument just happens

1005
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:53,200
to give you for a false alarm because

1006
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:54,400
something might you know there is a

1007
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:57,280
malfunction in that instrument then you

1008
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:00,560
will have others to to check it and then

1009
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:02,320
so that's important to have redundancy

1010
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:03,200
yeah

1011
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:05,280
so you talk about recreating the the

1012
00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:06,880
motion in three dimensions which i think

1013
00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:08,320
is very important because if you're

1014
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:10,320
going to distinguish things based on the

1015
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:13,280
path and the motion you know having a 3d

1016
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:14,320
uh

1017
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:16,240
a 3d recreation of that is very

1018
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:17,760
important but can you actually do that

1019
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:20,960
with two telescopes in one location oh

1020
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,640
yeah because then i mean you can

1021
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:24,480
calculate the angular resolution you

1022
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,560
need to see a parallax and

1023
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,119
we you know it's it's relatively easy to

1024
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:32,079
put telescopes at a reasonable even at a

1025
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,839
few meters separation they can get a

1026
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:35,520
very significant parallax relative to

1027
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:37,760
their angular resolution and the other

1028
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:39,839
thing i should mention is if if you

1029
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,000
assume that the standard laws of physics

1030
00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:44,560
apply right and you see an object moving

1031
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:46,880
faster than the speed of sound then it

1032
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:49,200
should definitely make sound it should

1033
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:52,240
make a sonic boom or something uh and

1034
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:54,320
then if it goes through water it should

1035
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:57,440
make a splash right so uh the point is

1036
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,320
these

1037
00:38:02,230 --> 00:38:00,240
i mean i'm very curious to see that

1038
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:02,240
these effects are indeed noticed because

1039
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:04,240
that would imply the object is real and

1040
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:05,760
you could constrain the parameters of

1041
00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:07,920
the object so we will have also audio

1042
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:10,560
sensors trying to figure out you know

1043
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:11,839
indeed

1044
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:13,680
whether if we see an object moving

1045
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,440
faster than sound it makes the noise

1046
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:17,760
that you expect from a sonic boom

1047
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:20,000
and all of these things should be put

1048
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:21,359
together i mean

1049
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:23,280
according to the what we know about

1050
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:25,520
physics it makes no sense to imagine an

1051
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:27,839
object with some cross-sectional area

1052
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:29,839
moving through air and not making any

1053
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:30,800
sound

1054
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:33,359
sure yeah yeah uh

1055
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:34,880
now just digging a little bit into this

1056
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:37,200
this whole uh issue of locating things

1057
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:40,240
with with parallax uh it seems like you

1058
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,119
know if you've got a a few 10 meter

1059
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:45,680
separation on two telescopes and you've

1060
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:48,320
got something to say 10 kilometers away

1061
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:49,920
uh the amount of

1062
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:51,760
uh accuracy you would need would be

1063
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:53,760
quite significant now the one big

1064
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:56,400
telescope you mentioned the the 500 000

1065
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:57,920
one could certainly do it because it's

1066
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:59,200
like you know super accurate and

1067
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,280
calibrated and fast moving but with the

1068
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:03,280
smaller telescopes would you be able to

1069
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:05,040
actually do that do they have sufficient

1070
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:06,960
resolution in the you know the go-to

1071
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:09,520
mounts that they have uh to actually do

1072
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:11,359
that within whatever is required like

1073
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:13,520
one arc second or whatever yeah it

1074
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:15,200
depends on the size of the telescope as

1075
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:17,839
you say and indeed the 10 meters divided

1076
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:20,160
by 10 kilometers is roughly 2 arc

1077
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:21,599
seconds

1078
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:22,480
and

1079
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:25,359
you know uh so for that you need the a

1080
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:26,560
bigger

1081
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:28,960
aperture you need the you know

1082
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,200
something of the order of um at least

1083
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:33,520
that 10 centimeters you know that gives

1084
00:39:37,349 --> 00:39:35,520
you if you take a wavelength of light

1085
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:37,359
that is half a micron

1086
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:38,880
you know that then

1087
00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:40,400
something that is of the order of 10

1088
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:42,320
centimeters or more it can give you the

1089
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:48,069
obviously something that

1090
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:49,440
should be just simple engineering i

1091
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,800
guess you know figuring out you know

1092
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,640
what what the actual resolution of such

1093
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:54,880
yeah we went through the numbers and it

1094
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,359
works out you know we have exceptional

1095
00:40:02,870 --> 00:39:59,599
uh instrumentalists like

1096
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,880
nick lowe and the gaspar baccos which

1097
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:04,319
who are

1098
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:07,200
leading our um telescope design and

1099
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:08,960
you know these are really the top people

1100
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:11,280
in the field of astronomy doing these

1101
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:14,240
things and uh i was very happy to be

1102
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:16,480
able to recruit them to the team

1103
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,920
so let's talk a little bit about like

1104
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:19,520
some different approaches that might

1105
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:21,920
kind of mesh with this uh like suppose

1106
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:25,280
you're using uh full sky

1107
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:26,800
cameras that take a picture of the

1108
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,839
entire sky you mean like 50

1109
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:31,599
yeah essentially yes

1110
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:34,240
or multiple cameras in different

1111
00:40:37,349 --> 00:40:35,520
segments of the sky so you're just

1112
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:37,359
getting full coverage of the sky and you

1113
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:39,680
can you can see things in the sky

1114
00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:41,839
uh could you use

1115
00:40:47,109 --> 00:40:44,880
that with multiple from each station so

1116
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:47,119
you could triangulate the position

1117
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:50,240
yeah we are discussing that except then

1118
00:40:52,870 --> 00:40:52,079
again it's a question of cost and how

1119
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:52,880
many

1120
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:55,520
can you use and yeah but definitely

1121
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,359
that's something we we actually have

1122
00:41:01,829 --> 00:40:59,760
been discussing last week uh so what

1123
00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:01,839
you're saying makes a lot of sense and

1124
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:02,960
um

1125
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:05,440
okay so the issue is really how big of a

1126
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:07,599
telescope

1127
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,359
do we need

1128
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:12,000
or if you have multiple telescopes you

1129
00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:12,720
know

1130
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,440
uh how to optimize the number versus

1131
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:17,280
size and

1132
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:19,040
given the cost and

1133
00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:20,400
i should say that

1134
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,680
um

1135
00:41:26,230 --> 00:41:23,839
you know the distance to which you can

1136
00:41:28,309 --> 00:41:26,240
resolve objects depends on the size of

1137
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:28,319
your aperture right so

1138
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:30,400
and now you have to assume whether the

1139
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:33,119
number of objects scales as distance

1140
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:36,400
cubed or as distance squared because

1141
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,240
if if the objects are just hovering

1142
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,800
above the earth surface then it's

1143
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,400
two-dimensional distribution when you

1144
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:44,240
look towards the horizon the number of

1145
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:46,880
objects that you see as as a function of

1146
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:48,880
distance would scale like distance the

1147
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:51,680
maximum distance squared but if they are

1148
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:53,760
distributed at all elevations in three

1149
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,680
dimensions then it will go like distance

1150
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:57,599
cubed and yeah and of course then you

1151
00:42:01,910 --> 00:42:00,160
have to decide is it beneficial to have

1152
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:01,920
one big telescope because then you can

1153
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:04,160
see much farther out

1154
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:05,440
and you gain

1155
00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:08,000
by the size of the aperture cubed

1156
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:09,680
basically in terms of the volume that

1157
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:10,960
you're covering

1158
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,119
versus

1159
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:15,119
a situation where you have a lot of

1160
00:42:18,790 --> 00:42:16,400
small telescopes

1161
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:18,800
each of which is cheaper but then each

1162
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:21,520
of them is able to resolve only a

1163
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:23,200
smaller volume and

1164
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:24,079
um

1165
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:25,440
you know so we are going through these

1166
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:26,880
calculations

1167
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:29,200
yeah well most of the reports that we

1168
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:31,359
get are things that happen

1169
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:32,960
in the troposphere essentially like

1170
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:35,920
below like say 28 30 000 feet well but

1171
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:37,359
that may be just because we were

1172
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,960
surveying those

1173
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:41,040
regions with you know

1174
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,839
airplanes uh yeah we don't really know

1175
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:45,359
and and the other thing i should mention

1176
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:47,599
there is another critical element which

1177
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:49,760
is the distribution of objects as a

1178
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:52,720
function of size you see um it may well

1179
00:42:56,390 --> 00:42:54,319
be that the reports

1180
00:42:58,630 --> 00:42:56,400
uh focused on

1181
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:58,640
some size because that's the size that

1182
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:01,920
was noticeable with either the pilot's

1183
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:04,079
eyes or or instruments they were using

1184
00:43:09,829 --> 00:43:07,440
and and i'm really curious to know what

1185
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:09,839
what is the size distribution because

1186
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:11,760
you you can have many more objects that

1187
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:13,599
are smaller in size that you can already

1188
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:16,800
resolve with with big telescopes and um

1189
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:19,920
so the number of uap that you find will

1190
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:22,400
depend on the size distribution which is

1191
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:25,280
on completely unknown and of course on

1192
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:27,680
the instruments that you are using and

1193
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,400
uh if i had an infinite budget if

1194
00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:33,200
unlimited budget i would use the the

1195
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:35,359
biggest telescopes we can buy off the

1196
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:39,040
shelf like one meter let's say or or so

1197
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:41,599
and then just get as many as possible

1198
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:44,240
thousands of them uh or more and

1199
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:47,520
basically uh cover the sky and and just

1200
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:48,640
monitor it

1201
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:49,920
yeah

1202
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:55,359
you can buy all these instruments off

1203
00:43:58,069 --> 00:43:56,400
the shelf

1204
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:58,079
and it's just a matter of putting them

1205
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:00,960
together for the the purpose and and i

1206
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:03,359
should say some astronomers said oh we

1207
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:05,280
we have telescopes around the globe you

1208
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:07,359
know we have um

1209
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,079
satellites looking down the point is all

1210
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:11,680
of these instruments that are currently

1211
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:13,760
being used are not doing the the job

1212
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,480
that we want them to do because well so

1213
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,480
one instrument that might be doing it is

1214
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:19,440
um

1215
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,760
you know the the space fence

1216
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:23,680
which is essentially what the us uses

1217
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:26,319
for tracking space debris and space junk

1218
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:27,520
and you talked about things that are

1219
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:29,760
very very small

1220
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,079
and you know the space fence and there's

1221
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:34,880
an older version of that as well use

1222
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:37,760
this uh this multi-static radar

1223
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:40,079
where essentially it's just it's listing

1224
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:43,760
for reflections of uh radar pings of of

1225
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,720
objects

1226
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:45,839
yeah but

1227
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,960
multiples

1228
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:48,800
they cannot resolve it probably right

1229
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:51,280
they cannot tell uh they cannot make an

1230
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:53,359
image of the object they cannot take an

1231
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:55,040
image but they can they can track it and

1232
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:56,640
they can track objects that are as small

1233
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:58,640
as i think 10 centimeters or best

1234
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,800
basketball size i think so but the

1235
00:45:04,309 --> 00:45:02,400
problem with that it would be just like

1236
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,319
those fuzzy images you know we will know

1237
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,800
about an object moving in some so you're

1238
00:45:11,589 --> 00:45:08,640
right we will be able to

1239
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,599
uh infer the trajectory right and yeah

1240
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:13,520
and i think the trajectory the

1241
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:15,119
interesting thing about a lot of these

1242
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:17,119
these things is in fact the trajectory

1243
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:18,880
and it's it's often not so much what it

1244
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:20,960
looks like which is often you know just

1245
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:22,640
just sometimes a sphere or something

1246
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,800
like that but if it has an interesting

1247
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:26,560
trajectory like it is actually hovering

1248
00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:28,960
in space for example or if it's moving

1249
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,359
and changing directions in a certain way

1250
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:33,200
this is something that has been reported

1251
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:34,640
and it would seem like you know an

1252
00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:36,960
effort at gathering data on things that

1253
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:38,000
do that

1254
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,599
would be important but it would also

1255
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:42,000
seem that if there were these things

1256
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:44,240
flying around in the atmosphere

1257
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:47,040
then uh the technology like this this

1258
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,280
this space fence the uh the multi-static

1259
00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:51,599
radar installation of the us government

1260
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:52,880
would do it but you know that's

1261
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:54,800
government but that's what

1262
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,839
i don't yeah i don't want that

1263
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:59,599
yeah i know you've been approached by

1264
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,640
people who've

1265
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:02,400
talked to you about

1266
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:06,480
peter davenport in back in 2004

1267
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:10,160
proposed a ufo hunting method using

1268
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:13,520
multi-static radar which uses fm radio

1269
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:15,280
transmitters and then a bunch of

1270
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:17,760
receiving stations to to track objects

1271
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,550
you're right that radars are very

1272
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:26,880
effective at doing that and i i will

1273
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:28,720
mention an anecdote

1274
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,440
that you may not not know about them so

1275
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:34,079
uh after omo was discovered

1276
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:37,119
um i noticed that there is

1277
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:40,000
a table you know a a website where they

1278
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:41,839
list

1279
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:43,920
meteors from the past that were detected

1280
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:47,280
by u.s government sensors and they list

1281
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,119
the numbers about

1282
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:51,520
those i mean the velocity components of

1283
00:46:57,109 --> 00:46:54,240
those meteors without giving error bars

1284
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:57,119
and i asked my student amir siraj to

1285
00:47:02,069 --> 00:46:59,200
look into that table and see if there is

1286
00:47:04,630 --> 00:47:02,079
any object moving faster than you expect

1287
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,640
for meteors originating from the solar

1288
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:06,240
system so if there is any object that

1289
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,079
could have originated from outside the

1290
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:10,640
solar system in the meteor data that was

1291
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:13,520
publicly available and he found in 2015

1292
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:15,280
there was a meteor that moved much

1293
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:16,480
faster

1294
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:18,160
uh than

1295
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:20,559
expected for an object bound to the

1296
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:23,040
solar system and we wrote a paper about

1297
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:24,720
it and said

1298
00:47:28,470 --> 00:47:26,480
here is an example for a meteor that

1299
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:28,480
could have been interstellar in origin

1300
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:31,760
and by the way it was reported in 2015

1301
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:32,640
so it

1302
00:47:36,309 --> 00:47:34,640
predated

1303
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:36,319
and we wrote a scientific paper

1304
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:38,400
submitted it to the astrophysical

1305
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:40,079
journal letter

1306
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:42,800
letters and then it was refereed and

1307
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,200
then the referee came back and said

1308
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:46,800
we don't believe the government there is

1309
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,480
no error bar on this measurement

1310
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:50,160
therefore this paper should not be

1311
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:51,359
published

1312
00:47:56,549 --> 00:47:54,400
and so i said okay um i know some people

1313
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,559
you know i i shared the board on physics

1314
00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:58,160
and astronomy of the national academies

1315
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:59,680
and there was a member of the committee

1316
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,280
that uh

1317
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:03,680
opera you know works in los alamos and

1318
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:06,079
you know behind the defense so to speak

1319
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:08,720
and i asked him whether it's possible to

1320
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,440
get any uh limit upper limit on the

1321
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:13,599
error budget so that we can quote it and

1322
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,520
say you know the error is less than

1323
00:48:19,270 --> 00:48:17,280
something and therefore this object must

1324
00:48:21,829 --> 00:48:19,280
be from outside the solar system

1325
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:21,839
so after many months he came back and

1326
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:24,000
then provided the needed

1327
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:26,240
statement so we put it in the scientific

1328
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:27,200
paper

1329
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:29,440
and then the referee said oh that's not

1330
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:31,839
good enough how do i know that i should

1331
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,920
trust this person that gave you that

1332
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:35,040
information

1333
00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:38,240
we want to see the data before we accept

1334
00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:40,559
this paper for publication so

1335
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:42,720
so then the editor came up with a

1336
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:46,000
creative solution he said

1337
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:49,440
let me find a referee that has

1338
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:51,839
uh clearance to look at the actual data

1339
00:48:55,109 --> 00:48:53,760
that was obtained by the government and

1340
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,119
tell us whether

1341
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,119
the data is reliable

1342
00:49:01,910 --> 00:48:59,359
and he couldn't find such a referee so

1343
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:01,920
the paper was left in limbo

1344
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,720
and it's really unfortunate because

1345
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,319
you know we're talking about a purely

1346
00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:08,400
scientific motivation for getting the

1347
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:11,599
error budget on a measurement from 2015

1348
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:13,359
and of course the government has an

1349
00:49:17,270 --> 00:49:15,119
issue because it will say something

1350
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:17,280
about the sensors were that were used

1351
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:20,800
that's why you know from this experience

1352
00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:23,200
uh i learned that it's best to collect

1353
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:25,359
your own data i don't want to look at

1354
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:27,440
any data because there are layers and

1355
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,000
layers of bureaucracy that prevent us

1356
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:32,000
from having access to government-owned

1357
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:33,520
data

1358
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:35,040
i guess that's the idea that with the

1359
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,599
the multi-static radar thing is that you

1360
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:39,680
wouldn't use any government data you

1361
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:41,520
would be able to set up a relatively

1362
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:44,160
cheap network of uh receiving stations

1363
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:46,800
that could cover the entire country and

1364
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:49,040
measure trajectories uh and i think that

1365
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:50,400
that would be a great that would be

1366
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:51,920
great except it couldn't give us an

1367
00:49:56,710 --> 00:49:54,640
image so for the trajectories you're

1368
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:56,720
exactly right but again like i must say

1369
00:50:02,870 --> 00:49:59,280
like i think perhaps this uh the search

1370
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:02,880
for an image is i feel perhaps a little

1371
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:05,119
bit misplaced the focus on just

1372
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,960
searching for an image because really

1373
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:08,319
what you want to demonstrate is that

1374
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,760
there is something

1375
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,520
unusual now sure if you get an image of

1376
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:13,040
something that looks really weird that

1377
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,880
would be great but you've also got to

1378
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:16,400
demonstrate really that it's it's moving

1379
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:18,559
in an unusual way it could be just about

1380
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,520
something

1381
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,040
if we have an image and we see the

1382
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:23,440
trajectory in 3d with parallax we can

1383
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,599
get both i should say you know there is

1384
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:28,160
this saying it is worth a thousand words

1385
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:29,680
in my case i should tell you that the

1386
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:31,839
picture is worth 66 000 words the number

1387
00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:34,000
of words in my book exothera

1388
00:50:37,589 --> 00:50:35,200
i wouldn't need to write the book

1389
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:37,599
whatsoever if i had a nice photograph

1390
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,839
that i could

1391
00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,200
uh

1392
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:43,839
you you list three things in the the the

1393
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,280
having user research for the gallery

1394
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:47,200
project and one of them was uh search

1395
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,800
for satellites and you didn't mention

1396
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,079
that earlier you just mentioned the

1397
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:51,839
first two is this are you

1398
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:53,280
are you still doing that or is that uh

1399
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:54,960
uh

1400
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:57,280
um yeah that's obviously something of

1401
00:51:02,470 --> 00:51:00,400
interest but that would come third so

1402
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:02,480
uh we will do in parallel the first two

1403
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:04,559
investigations uh basically searching

1404
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:05,520
for you

1405
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:07,680
i mean identifying uap

1406
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:10,559
identifying the unidentified that's the

1407
00:51:16,589 --> 00:51:13,920
goal of the first component and then

1408
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:16,599
trying to find the additional

1409
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:20,400
omoamoa-like objects either in

1410
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:23,119
upcoming data from pan stars or from the

1411
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:24,800
vera rubin observatory in a couple of

1412
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:26,000
years and then

1413
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,000
planning on a space mission that will

1414
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:30,960
send us a spacecraft with a camera that

1415
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,440
will come close to these objects if we

1416
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:36,000
we are catching them early enough we can

1417
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:38,000
intercept their trajectory just like

1418
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,760
osiris-rex

1419
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:41,520
came close to

1420
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:43,520
the asteroid benue and actually landed

1421
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,640
on it and we bring back a sample in 2023

1422
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:48,960
so in much the same way you can easily

1423
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:51,119
tell the difference between a rock and

1424
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:53,040
an artificial object

1425
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,680
okay yeah no i i i'm

1426
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:58,079
like i say i'm very much in favor of uh

1427
00:52:01,829 --> 00:52:00,240
more data i just you know i want to

1428
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:01,839
focus on getting the the right data and

1429
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:03,119
obviously that's something that you all

1430
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,280
are talking about

1431
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,359
we agree on the fact that the existing

1432
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:09,599
data that was released to the public was

1433
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:11,760
not of high enough quality

1434
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,079
and what we don't know is whether other

1435
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:15,599
data is more convincing we don't know

1436
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:17,599
that because we haven't seen it what i'm

1437
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:20,800
saying is let's try to get that data

1438
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:21,760
yeah if

1439
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:26,559
or how are you going to

1440
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:27,680
i don't say how you're going to get it

1441
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:29,520
but wouldn't the government not want you

1442
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:31,040
to get this data if it's something that

1443
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:32,720
they would classify or do you think it's

1444
00:52:35,349 --> 00:52:34,400
classified for kind of

1445
00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:35,359
reason

1446
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:37,760
okay i i don't believe the government

1447
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:40,400
has any agenda i think the issue is

1448
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,480
really that the data was collected by

1449
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:43,839
sensors

1450
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,559
whose nature is classified because we

1451
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,800
don't want adversaries other nations to

1452
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,319
know exactly what technologies we're

1453
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,720
using to monitor our sky and because the

1454
00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:54,640
sensors are classified the data is also

1455
00:52:59,270 --> 00:52:56,640
classified that was my experience with

1456
00:53:01,349 --> 00:52:59,280
the meteor right the meteor is a

1457
00:53:02,549 --> 00:53:01,359
completely innocent event that has

1458
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:02,559
nothing to do

1459
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,920
with other nations and nevertheless the

1460
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:07,760
government had difficulties releasing

1461
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:10,160
the error budget and the reason is

1462
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:11,839
because it will say something about the

1463
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:15,119
sensors that were used and that you know

1464
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,280
the lesson i learned from that is

1465
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:19,359
the data may not be classified because

1466
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:21,839
of its nature but more more because of

1467
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:23,680
it of the of the instruments that were

1468
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:26,160
used to collect it and i'm saying let's

1469
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,160
get off the shelf instruments that we

1470
00:53:32,309 --> 00:53:30,640
have full control over and then the data

1471
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:32,319
will be open

1472
00:53:36,069 --> 00:53:34,960
yeah that would be great i would love it

1473
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:36,079
so

1474
00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:37,599
you

1475
00:53:41,190 --> 00:53:40,079
do a lot of these interviews i could i

1476
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:41,200
could tell you could pretty much

1477
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:43,200
interview yourself uh because you

1478
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:45,119
anticipated the questions over the past

1479
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,119
six months since my book appeared i had

1480
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:49,040
the more than a thousand interviews

1481
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:51,119
probably eleven hundred i know what do

1482
00:53:55,829 --> 00:53:53,839
you think uh about

1483
00:53:57,829 --> 00:53:55,839
the issue of

1484
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:57,839
science popularity and having to

1485
00:54:01,430 --> 00:54:00,640
popularize science and you're having to

1486
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:01,440
get

1487
00:54:06,069 --> 00:54:03,839
your message out there

1488
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:06,079
as opposed to simply doing the science i

1489
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:08,640
mean do you feel like you have to do all

1490
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,040
this this pr work or is it something

1491
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:13,920
that you you just want to do or what

1492
00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:17,280
okay so in this context um you know

1493
00:54:23,910 --> 00:54:20,400
uh back in february uh my publicist in

1494
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:23,920
the uk said that good job avi you are

1495
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,400
selling the book quite well and i said

1496
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:28,240
to him look i'm not trying to sell the

1497
00:54:33,109 --> 00:54:29,920
book i'm trying to convey a message

1498
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:33,119
which i think is quite important and if

1499
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:34,960
the public would not care much about my

1500
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:37,440
message i would still deliver it and if

1501
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:39,119
the book didn't sell i wouldn't care

1502
00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:40,480
less about it

1503
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:42,160
so it's really the message that i'm

1504
00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:44,799
trying to convey and my objective is

1505
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:47,680
simple uh it's important for me that

1506
00:54:50,789 --> 00:54:49,200
humanity as a whole you know our

1507
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,799
civilization will be guided by the

1508
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,400
principles of science you know that's

1509
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:54,960
really important and therefore as a

1510
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:56,960
practicing scientist you know i've

1511
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:59,680
published altogether more than 800

1512
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:01,280
scientific papers and over the past

1513
00:55:05,910 --> 00:55:04,160
decade i published more than 500 so i'm

1514
00:55:07,109 --> 00:55:05,920
i'm really a practicing scientist i have

1515
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:07,119
a lot of

1516
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:09,040
students and and postdocs working with

1517
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:12,160
me uh so i think it's important that a

1518
00:55:16,349 --> 00:55:14,160
scientist a practicing scientist conveys

1519
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:16,359
that and not someone that is

1520
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:18,480
popularizing science so that's a very

1521
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:20,960
important distinction there are

1522
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:23,359
a lot of people whose names you know

1523
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,200
who are quite popular and are discussing

1524
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,680
science done by others okay

1525
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:31,359
and that's a different

1526
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:33,680
job description here i'm talking about

1527
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:36,160
myself as a practicing scientist trying

1528
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:38,240
to explain to the public why science is

1529
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:40,240
exciting and why it can address

1530
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,319
questions of interest to the public so

1531
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:44,640
you see the the other issue that bribes

1532
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:47,599
me is that the scientific community is

1533
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:48,880
not really

1534
00:55:52,069 --> 00:55:50,000
uh

1535
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:52,079
always

1536
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:55,599
true to its its mission

1537
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:59,119
definition uh the mission of science is

1538
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,079
to

1539
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:02,559
learn about the world through evidence

1540
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:04,960
through experiments and

1541
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,640
often what you find in academia is

1542
00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:08,880
people trying to promote their image so

1543
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:10,960
that they can get more honors and awards

1544
00:56:14,309 --> 00:56:11,760
and

1545
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:14,319
sometimes it collides with

1546
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:17,200
getting evidence because you know if you

1547
00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:18,960
believe in the multiverse or if you

1548
00:56:23,829 --> 00:56:21,119
believe in extra dimensions and things

1549
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:23,839
that cannot be tested then you protect

1550
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:26,000
yourself against being wrong and that's

1551
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:28,559
a very comfortable spot to be in it's

1552
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:30,640
sort of like asking how many angels can

1553
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,799
sit on the tip of the pin that cannot be

1554
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:34,720
tested experimentally and maybe you can

1555
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:37,040
make very intelligent intelligent

1556
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:38,720
arguments about it so that you can

1557
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:40,240
demonstrate that you are smart and get

1558
00:56:42,870 --> 00:56:41,839
honors and awards from people that do

1559
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:42,880
the same

1560
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:45,359
uh so within your club

1561
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:47,520
that by the way very often feels as if

1562
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:49,280
it's on a pedestal relative to the

1563
00:56:53,829 --> 00:56:51,680
public you can feel that you are smart

1564
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:53,839
you are respected and you don't care

1565
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:56,319
about what the public cares about and

1566
00:57:01,589 --> 00:56:58,720
that i think is a big concern about the

1567
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:01,599
current culture in academia that that

1568
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:03,920
academia could work on on issues or

1569
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:05,920
topics that are not of relevance to

1570
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,760
society that are not of interest to

1571
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:10,000
society just because there is this

1572
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:12,640
built-in culture where the values are

1573
00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:14,799
more about demonstrating that you're

1574
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:17,440
smart rather than describing nature as

1575
00:57:21,589 --> 00:57:19,280
it is because if you were

1576
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:21,599
to ask what nature is about

1577
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:23,040
you would risk

1578
00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:24,480
making mistakes it's a learning

1579
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:26,079
experience you know einstein made three

1580
00:57:29,910 --> 00:57:28,079
mistakes in the last decade of his

1581
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:29,920
career because he was really curious

1582
00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:31,440
about nature

1583
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:33,280
and so

1584
00:57:36,549 --> 00:57:34,720
my point is

1585
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:36,559
in communicating with the public is also

1586
00:57:39,670 --> 00:57:37,680
to change

1587
00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:39,680
the culture which i think is not healthy

1588
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:41,760
right now where people in academia are

1589
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,760
not necessarily driven i mean in science

1590
00:57:47,589 --> 00:57:45,520
i'm not talking about humanities that's

1591
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:47,599
a separate method but in science they're

1592
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:49,359
not driven by the ambition to collect as

1593
00:57:54,230 --> 00:57:51,280
much evidence and discuss only topics

1594
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:54,240
that can be tested experimentally there

1595
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:56,640
is there is there are whole cultures of

1596
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:58,319
people working on things

1597
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,319
either conservative

1598
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:02,559
items where they just try to refine

1599
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,520
things we already know or another

1600
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:07,359
community of people that do completely

1601
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,200
speculative things that cannot be tested

1602
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:11,280
and that's a very safe place to be in

1603
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:13,839
and both communities live in harmony and

1604
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:16,160
i think it's unhealthy because we're

1605
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:17,760
supposed to be guided by evidence we're

1606
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:20,240
supposed to be taking risks and by

1607
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:22,640
speaking about it i'm trying to promote

1608
00:58:27,349 --> 00:58:25,359
a better reality of course you know it's

1609
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:27,359
not a pleasant for me to read things on

1610
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:28,720
social media that

1611
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:29,440
uh

1612
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:31,920
about that attack me personally but it's

1613
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:33,920
not about me you know you see i'm trying

1614
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,760
to promote a better reality that would

1615
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:37,920
serve us well and that includes what we

1616
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:40,000
discussed just before you know trying to

1617
00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:42,000
clear up the fog on a subject that the

1618
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,079
public cares about sure and scientists

1619
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:46,160
dismiss and i think you know once we

1620
00:58:50,789 --> 00:58:48,319
figure out the nature of uap you know if

1621
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:50,799
it ends up being a mundane explanation

1622
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,680
we move on you will be free to discuss

1623
00:58:57,510 --> 00:58:55,200
other topics that are more important

1624
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:57,520
perhaps you know like climate change and

1625
00:59:01,270 --> 00:58:58,880
things uh

1626
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,280
but we will know that this subject is

1627
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:03,680
over because we realize that these

1628
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:06,400
objects all have some explanation that

1629
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:09,359
is rather mundane let's move on so i

1630
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,920
think rather than staying this status

1631
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:13,920
quo where scientists dismiss subjects

1632
00:59:18,789 --> 00:59:16,000
like that and the public cares a lot

1633
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:18,799
about them but then there is this this

1634
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:21,280
frozen situation of uncertainty rather

1635
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:22,720
than do that let's

1636
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:24,640
move on you know let's let's

1637
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,359
be forward-looking and and resolve this

1638
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:29,200
issue

1639
00:59:32,870 --> 00:59:31,680
that's great yeah and uh uh one last

1640
00:59:35,750 --> 00:59:32,880
question i just want to kind of cover a

1641
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:35,760
little a little bit is uh kind of what

1642
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:37,920
we think of the proof of concept of of

1643
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:39,839
getting the the project moving

1644
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:42,400
especially in regards to getting images

1645
00:59:46,390 --> 00:59:44,240
of things because a big a big issue that

1646
00:59:49,190 --> 00:59:46,400
you have is the atmosphere

1647
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:49,200
and for me like the atmosphere is the

1648
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:50,799
limiting factor if i take a picture of

1649
00:59:54,789 --> 00:59:53,119
something horizontally that is five

1650
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:54,799
miles away i just usually get a blurry

1651
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:56,400
mess regardless of how big of a

1652
01:00:00,870 --> 00:59:58,960
telescope i get definitely so could you

1653
01:00:03,270 --> 01:00:00,880
do something just as a proof of concept

1654
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:03,280
like send a drone up um

1655
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:05,200
like a few miles away at twenty thousand

1656
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:06,400
feet or something you have to get

1657
01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:07,839
special that's the next

1658
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:09,680
an excellent point and in fact we were

1659
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:11,359
discussing this

1660
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:12,160
so

1661
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:14,319
first we need to select the instruments

1662
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:15,839
based on the cost

1663
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:17,520
and the effectiveness you know just

1664
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:21,760
doing optimal system design and uh once

1665
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:23,200
we select the instruments we buy them

1666
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,280
off the shelf you know given the budget

1667
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:27,520
i'm sure that we can buy at least

1668
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:30,400
a few systems okay and then indeed as

1669
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,319
you say we need to test them that they

1670
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:34,319
are performing and one way to test them

1671
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:36,640
is to fly drones and see that they

1672
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:39,680
identify them or and look at birds and

1673
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:40,960
see that they can

1674
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:43,440
identify them and see airplanes yeah

1675
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,680
definitely the testing is a crucial

1676
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:47,680
component and i think in the coming

1677
01:00:52,150 --> 01:00:49,920
months you know once we converge on

1678
01:00:54,549 --> 01:00:52,160
systems that we would like to use in the

1679
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:54,559
coming months we will be engaged in the

1680
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,400
testing phase exactly along the lines

1681
01:01:01,430 --> 01:00:58,799
that you said and once we have a working

1682
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:01,440
system that is satisfactory then we can

1683
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:03,359
produce copies of it

1684
01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:05,760
as much as our budget allows and then

1685
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:07,359
distribute them in various locations

1686
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:09,599
collect the data make it available to

1687
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:11,520
everyone you will be able to look at the

1688
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:13,920
data and the analysis that we will do

1689
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:16,880
will be transparent so you can you know

1690
01:01:22,309 --> 01:01:19,839
study it and decide if you agree with it

1691
01:01:23,349 --> 01:01:22,319
uh and it's you know all part of the

1692
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:23,359
standard

1693
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:25,839
scientific practice that's what we

1694
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:27,599
try to normalize

1695
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:30,480
you know the engagement

1696
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:32,319
uh that

1697
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:33,920
people have with

1698
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:36,960
this subject normalized by by normalize

1699
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:39,839
i mean make it open transparent

1700
01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:41,760
and

1701
01:01:49,829 --> 01:01:47,680
you know we don't know what the dark

1702
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:49,839
matter is we've been doing it for four

1703
01:01:54,549 --> 01:01:52,559
decades we haven't found the answer i

1704
01:01:57,029 --> 01:01:54,559
say that within the mainstream we have

1705
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,039
situations that are much worse than

1706
01:02:01,349 --> 01:01:59,440
uh you know we invested the hundreds of

1707
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:01,359
millions we didn't find anything so why

1708
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:03,760
not do a little bit of i'm talking about

1709
01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:06,400
tens of millions right to clear up the

1710
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,520
fog on this subject yeah but i i you say

1711
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:11,839
clear up i really think that's a very

1712
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:14,160
ambitious goal uh because if you don't

1713
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:15,920
find something over say the next 10

1714
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:18,960
years and oh definitely 5000 stations

1715
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:20,799
we know that birds exist right we know

1716
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:22,480
that yeah well sure sure but you find

1717
01:02:26,549 --> 01:02:24,480
something special i mean like yeah does

1718
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,559
that prove that nothing specially exists

1719
01:02:30,549 --> 01:02:28,640
if we don't find anything if we don't

1720
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:30,559
find anything unusual

1721
01:02:33,670 --> 01:02:32,160
that's an important conclusion we just

1722
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:33,680
say yeah

1723
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:36,160
the uap are all

1724
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:38,480
conventional things you know or perhaps

1725
01:02:42,870 --> 01:02:40,480
they all know where your telescopes are

1726
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:42,880
and they're hiding from your telescopes

1727
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:45,839
well okay so i as i said before we will

1728
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:48,319
engage only in the laws of physic you

1729
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:50,799
know we just use known physics

1730
01:02:54,549 --> 01:02:52,720
and we will not engage in any

1731
01:02:56,549 --> 01:02:54,559
conspiracies here i mean

1732
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:56,559
that's the way science is done you know

1733
01:03:00,710 --> 01:02:58,240
um we don't

1734
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,720
imagine things you know ghosts or

1735
01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:02,480
whatever we don't say that they're

1736
01:03:07,029 --> 01:03:04,160
trying of course you can say that they

1737
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:07,039
try to avoid the the telescopes we use

1738
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:07,920
but

1739
01:03:11,589 --> 01:03:09,520
you know we could put the telescopes in

1740
01:03:14,230 --> 01:03:11,599
places that we do do not disclose ahead

1741
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:14,240
of time right and and we will just do

1742
01:03:17,109 --> 01:03:15,520
our job

1743
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:17,119
yeah that sounds great and i look

1744
01:03:20,710 --> 01:03:18,880
forward to to what comes out of this i

1745
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:20,720
think it's it's very interesting project

1746
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:23,920
and uh yeah because i have been stymied

1747
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:26,319
so much by the lack of good photographs

1748
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:28,480
and it's very frustrating when people

1749
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:30,400
tell you i saw a ufo and they give you

1750
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:31,839
their iphone photograph and it's a

1751
01:03:41,670 --> 01:03:38,630
we come from the same point of view and

1752
01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:41,680
uh you know the science that i do stems

1753
01:03:45,029 --> 01:03:43,359
from my childhood

1754
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:45,039
basically when i was a kid you know i

1755
01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:47,119
wouldn't listen to what adults tell me i

1756
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:48,880
would like to figure it out myself and

1757
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:51,039
that's the way kids operate and they

1758
01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:53,200
learn new things that the adults are not

1759
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,319
aware of this way and then you know it's

1760
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:58,319
unfortunate that

1761
01:04:03,270 --> 01:04:00,880
when kids become adult they lose most of

1762
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:03,280
the time their sense of curiosity and

1763
01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:05,839
they start to argue for things that they

1764
01:04:09,109 --> 01:04:07,440
don't have good evidence for that

1765
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:09,119
they're trying to pretend that they know

1766
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:11,200
more than they actually know and i could

1767
01:04:14,870 --> 01:04:12,799
say that throughout my life i was

1768
01:04:17,029 --> 01:04:14,880
fortunate enough to maintain my

1769
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:17,039
innocence and childhood curiosity and

1770
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:19,039
what you see in front of you is the same

1771
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:22,960
farm boy that that was born 59 years ago

1772
01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:25,520
uh you know people that know me from my

1773
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:27,280
childhood would would tell you that i

1774
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:29,039
haven't changed much

1775
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:31,520
yeah that's great and uh i love that

1776
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:33,039
sense of uh

1777
01:04:36,549 --> 01:04:35,440
adventurism within science is is great

1778
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:36,559
because i think it's something that we

1779
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:38,400
do need we can't just be uh you know

1780
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:39,680
sticking with why should science be

1781
01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:40,960
boring you know science could be

1782
01:04:44,069 --> 01:04:42,160
exciting

1783
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:44,079
and yeah you know even if we end up

1784
01:04:47,349 --> 01:04:45,839
finding a boring answer that's part of

1785
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,359
science you know that

1786
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:48,720
when we don't know the answer to

1787
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:50,720
something we should say we don't know

1788
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:52,720
adults often invent stories you know

1789
01:04:55,109 --> 01:04:54,000
when they don't know something they

1790
01:04:57,510 --> 01:04:55,119
invent

1791
01:04:59,029 --> 01:04:57,520
that's not necessary you know you just

1792
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:59,039
say what you know

1793
01:05:02,309 --> 01:05:00,720
and when you collect evidence that

1794
01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:02,319
doesn't show anything unusual you just

1795
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:05,200
say it i mean that's fine

1796
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:07,039
well i'd like to thank you very much for

1797
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:08,400
this discussion it's been very very

1798
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:10,160
interesting and i wish you well with

1799
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,839
your project and i'm definitely going to

1800
01:05:15,670 --> 01:05:13,920
be following it closely and

1801
01:05:17,029 --> 01:05:15,680
look forward to your your first proof of

1802
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:17,039
concept photographs that's going to be

1803
01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:19,119
very interesting and and if you do have

1804
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,880
that million of the million dollars that

1805
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:22,480
you mentioned